Best in Show: Catherine Martin, To Leslie data-dive, Sundance’s first grand jury winner
MIA This week on Best in Show, we’re talking to four-time Oscar winner and current three-time Oscar nominee Catherine Martin about sparkling costumes and tight butts. And we’re revisiting the first movie to ever win the Sundance Jury Award. Plus, we have a data-driven discussion about how that Andrea Riseborough nomination laid out on Letterboxd.
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MIA Hi and welcome to Best in Show, a limited podcast series brought to you by The Letterboxd. I am Mia Vicino, the West Coast Editor at Letterboxd and Best in Show is all about award season. We are exactly halfway through this limited series and we are having a wild and fascinating time discussing the noms and gongs, the snubs and surprises in cinema history and meeting some of this season’s contenders. But mostly we are celebrating cinema just like we always do here at Letterboxd. And here to celebrate cinema with me are my loyal Best in Show besties: Hollywood veteran and our editorial producer Brian Formo.
BRIAN Present.
MIA And our Editor-in-Chief Gemma Gracewood…
GEMMA I’m here too.
MIA Also on our team outside and the broadcast van with their pork rinds and pickle juice are our resident Fact Finder, Jack Facts, and the man with the tape deck himself, our editor Slim. Thank you as always to the silent gents. And now as always, we start with the news. It’s been somewhat quiet on the awards front with just the Grammys and the AARP movies for grownups award winners but it’s a nice little breather before the flood of Guild and Academy Awards to come. And in that breathing space there’s been a different flood of reactions flowing across film Twitter and industry emailers and podcasts plenty, to the news of Andrea Riseborough Oscar nomination for Leading Actress for her role as the titular Leslie in To Leslie. We wondered whether to wade into these stormy waters, didn’t we, Gemma?
GEMMA Do we need to be another voice in this sea of voices and opinions? But I mean, especially in a show where we have an interview with one of my and your all time favorite movie people. Catherine Martin, do we have something to say about the Andrea Riseborough farewell? Yes. When we looked at our own letterbox data, we realized we do have an interesting story of our own to tell about To Leslie and the power of a Nam. This is the industry wherein after all, and if we want to affect change, and now a little corner of the world, and maybe help someone else deserving get a nomination in future it’s worth investigating the players and the game they’re playing.
MIA That’s right. So we are going to take some time to talk about why it matters. Why it’s silly, and why you’re probably seeing reactions all over the place. So first a recap. About 10 days before the Oscar nominations came out there were suddenly all these posts about to Lesley and specifically Andrea Riseborough is performance on various famous people’s social s like Gwyneth Paltrow, Edward Norton, Kate Winslet, you know, all these people who have massive fan bases, and Cate Blanchett also gave Andrea that shout out at the Critics Choice Awards. And well, that sounds like friends ing friends. Those are some pretty special friends. It’s definitely an uneven playing field if you have an army of A listers in your network to generate buzz out of left field. Then the Oscar nominations dropped. And there was Andrea Riseborough. Among the five lead actress nominees. It gave the academy enough paws that they investigated the tactics. Now we are not in agreement that awards should be million dollar campaigns only. But Brian, our esteemed Hollywood veteran, earn your job title and explain the tactics that ultimately led to an investigation here, please certainly and
BRIAN just right up top, we have to say that the Academy has already weighed in in the past week. And they said that there are some changes that they’ll have to do that they’ll announce after this award season. It’ll probably be something in the realm of social media, but they are not going to rescind Andrea’s nomination and they shouldn’t in my opinion. Do we all agree they shouldn’t take this away? Yeah, absolutely. So this is a rational response, both like tackling a potential issue and letting her keep it she put in the work in regards to the investigation. Essentially, the simplest way to say it is that there are rules as much as people want things to just kind of drop out of thin air. There are rules and this particular rule that they rubbed up against was actually put in place back in 1997. After an aggressive phone call campaign for the actor Geoffrey Rush for the film Shine. He actually won Best Actor for that role. So the rules that were created after Geoffrey Rush had 70 phone calls on his behalf Two Academy stipulate that whoever is hired on behalf of a film can only Academy one day a week about a specific film. And publicists adhere to this because it would be bad for business if they got a film disqualified by overstepping it and hurting their job prospects. Now to Lesley you had the movies director Michael Morris, the directors wife Mary McCormack, who is also an actress and their agents, messaging people multiple times a day during this 10 day period, about this specific movie and explicitly asking them to post gushingly on social media specifically about Andrea Riseborough. You have Titanic actress s Fisher putting a specific number out there, she wrote, we only need 218 first place votes to get a nomination. And she also said actresses like Daniel Detweiler, and Viola Davis were quote unquote locks who didn’t necessarily need . Honestly, Francis, this post is probably the biggest blight the reason why there is an investigation to begin with. Now, why does this matter? Nominations help a smaller movie be seen, they help the careers of those who are nominated, that first nomination does change drastically the types of roles and the size of those roles that you get after it. Recently, you have Cate Blanchett saying and her Critics Choice speech to do away with awards entirely. But let’s be honest, her career was boosted after her first nomination for Elizabeth and the next breath. She’s used her televised speech to punch for Andrea. And so this kind of campaigning helped Geoffrey Rush out immensely. He did win. After that initial when Geoffrey Rush did go on to get three more nominations. Once you kind of start getting nominations you collect them. So that first nomination is an industry pipeline
GEMMA sydal. And because he got some facts from Jack and a little bit of math, also harkening back to our very first episode. I know you like math, yeah. Are you excited?
MIA Oh, yes. Yeah, my favorite subject. I’m a math genius. So let’s do it. So
GEMMA when Lesley premiered at South by Southwest a year ago in March last year, it had a total of 142 logged watches on the letterboxed same festival where everything everywhere all at once launched. So you know quite a difference and the number of people who saw the film at the time. Then I had a limited theatrical release in America in October, and that number climbed on letterboxed by only a few 100 to 524 total views logged in; it was set at that time on just over 1000 watch lists. These are teeny tiny numbers for release week. On January 5, one week before Oscar nomination voting Lesley was sitting at just over 1500 Total logged views and 3000 watch lists. You know, these numbers still feel like gradual natural growth. No 100 The campaign made me know if you’ve been doing some math around the percentages here while I’ve been throwing numbers out.
MIA Oh, yeah, absolutely. I’ve been doing this all in my head off the top of my head. Both of those growth periods represent an increase of logged watches in the 200% range.
GEMMA In the 200% range. Wow, I love your amazing fast math. Okay, so a gentle doubling over time really is what we’re looking at now. Oscar nomination voting ends on June 17. This is right in the thick of the celebrity campaign on social media for Andrea, on that date on the date that nomination voting ended to Lesley now has almost 3000 Total logged watchers and as on almost 10,000 watch lists. Like this is not the week of release. So in a week and a half. It had as many letterbox diary logs as it had in 10 months. And it’s been available on digital for months since October. Do you want some more numbers? I feel like a forensic mathematician as good as a mathematician or something like I am Russell Crowe. Welcome to my beautiful mind. Here we go. In the week before Oscar nominations day, it added another 1000 watches and 2000 Watch led sets on the date of the Oscar nominations January 24. Honestly, this is so freakin sick. It’s ridiculous. 700 people log the film and almost 7000 people edit to their watch lists. I’m gonna say that again. 700 people log to Lesley on letterboxd. In a single day, Mia met brain. Do you the total number of logged views the film had on its release in October? Easy 524. So more people logged too loosely on Oscar nominations day and then during its entire theatrical and VOD release month. Overall, it’s had more than a 400% increase in logged views since the campaign for Andrea began, and it’s now sitting on more than 27,000 letterboxed watch lists and it’s available to rent. Yes,
MIA I did that and because it’s been out for a while it’s not even 90 99 It’s that it’s that cool 699 I believe very affordable
GEMMA knows what to loosely. It is fine. It’s a fine and good drama about the perils of alcoholism and those who enable alcoholics and I, I wish I knew more about Lizzie herself through the story, but I do also like a movie that doesn’t spoon feed me so well and all I enjoyed the experience and as far as grand movie characters of 2020 to go Lesley is no Lydia Chow or Evelyn Wang, or made me tell but you know, Andrea is amazing. And I hope that campaign by her friends doesn’t sell out her own career. We actually dug into the journal files and asked Michael Morris, the director, a few questions about his film before its premiere last year and I wanted to read the answer to the question. What’s one thing you’d love viewers to know about your film before they go in? Because it illuminates Andrea’s work, he said. They talked about Lizzie’s pink suitcase being a very important prop in the movie. He said I love everything about our suitcase. We even painted it the specific color. But one thing I forgot to check was what it was actually like to open and close. On our first day we shot a scene where Lizzie has to pack it quickly. And we realized it was incredibly difficult to close. What Andrea did with this unexpected obstacle cache she instantly made it not a problem. But part of Leslie’s world is now one of my favorite little details of the movie. And he said that a year ago and I think that’s a really great insight into the work she did here. He also said that Barbara load and wonder would make the perfect double feature and I think he’s right.
MIA I confirm you’re right Gemma so Leslie is not quite as slow and quiet and soft as Wanda but I was definitely thinking about her while watching this one.
GEMMA What about you both? Are you in the 400%
BRIAN one I’ve said I was gobble one.
GEMMA The campaign worked and we all watched too loosely.
BRIAN I watched this the week that we recorded this episode. I think we all did. Yeah, Wanda would make a good double feature but I think Wanda is also a bit more of an interesting performance from Barbara Lowden, in my opinion, my hot take is that if Edie was nominated for Lesley Marc Maron really surprised me. Riseborough was good. I’m not saying that she’s not. But weirdly, I feel like she’s let down by a script that was written by the real life son of her character. There’s not there’s no real internal life to her beyond her addiction.
GEMMA Wow, that just made the movie better for me. I didn’t know that detail.
BRIAN I’ll just talk to a letterbox member, Matt Smith, who summarized my thoughts in one sentence so we can move on. I came for Riseborough obviously, and was pleasantly surprised by Marin. I wasn’t blown away, but her nomination sits Fine with me. It would sit a little better if it didn’t come out the way that it did. I actually don’t view it so much as a win for independent cinema. I view it as a win for a lengthy career of Riseborough has worked with many high profile directors and actors. And she’s been great for many, many, many years. And many famous people could push this to the top of watch lists or ballots, even sight unseen.
MIA I’m glad you brought this up, Brian, because I understand why folks are touting this as as an indie cinema when but I think that Paul mezcals Best Actor nomination for Aftersun might be more indicative of this point, because you know, like Paul is not an established industry name. He doesn't necessarily have this network of famous friends. And the movie's small budget was mostly from funds from the Scottish lottery. Also, debut director Charlotte wells does not yet have an actress wife to relentlessly campaign for her like to Lesley director, Michael Morris does,
GEMMA are you volunteering?
MIA I can do it. I would do it easily. But again, again, Andrea is great. And it’s at least cool to see some long overdue recognition for her work.
GEMMA Yeah. And I was wondering if this was a you know, a quote unquote, desirability moment, we’ve seen quite a few of them over the years like, she has been directed by in URI to she’s been directed by Brandon Cronenberg. She’s Nick cages, Mandy bloom, for goodness sake, the titular role. And Mandy, she’s brilliant, and everybody loves her. And she may not get another leading role, but this is the moment to give her the big push as literally her best role. And it’s just so weird. Why is Hollywood like this?
BRIAN There is an unavoidable discussion about who gets to build their career through ing character roles, who gets offered all of those smaller parts that help you build up your filmography and to work with directors that we just talked about, and who celebrities feel comfortable campaigning on behalf of. If you don’t understand why some people are extra upset it is because it has more to do with this than anything else. The goalposts were moved while the game was being played, and it ended up being against publicists and performers who adhere to that set rules. So like Detweiler was on talk shows she was doing it regularly.
GEMMA She said brilliant on all the talk shows and I mean, I’m glad she’s still up for a BAFTA because I want to see her on Small Talk Talk Shows . She's my favorite award season celebrity right at this moment.
MIA Yes yes so as I keep saying Andrea is excellent as she always is but better than Danielle until I’ve seen both and I just I just don’t think so but I but the fact that she released this down to earth drama and the whimsical [Roald Dahl’s Matilda the Musical] of the same year really shows off her range, even though I guess both roles are her plain
BRIAN bad mom’s bad moms get gnomes.
MIA Moms do get noms Brian. Take Lydia Thar she is an EGOT which brings us to the Grammys where real life person and good mom Viola Davis picked up a Grammy Award for Best Audio Book for her memoir, finding me making her a real life EGOT winner. That is an Emmy, a Grammy, an Oscar and a Tony as originated on the hit sitcom 30 Rock.
GEMMA So Viola wasn’t nominated for an Oscar this year, which we have discussed, but she has something even more rare. She is the 18th person in history to win the Grand Slam of show business. What American show business is I was trying to work out if there’s such a thing as an IP like me getting a BAFTA, bla bla bla bla bla, we’ll figure that out. And she’s actually the only that third woman to have an EGOT with all acting when’s after Helen Hayes and Rita Marino, a lot of the other ecards often get one of the trophies for producing alongside other jobs.
BRIAN Yeah, Audrey Hepburn got me through programming. So I mean, she’s, she’s, she’s a very worthy EGOT but I was surprised by the programming mentioned. Now someone who was actually very close to becoming an EGOT last year was Lin Manuel Miranda. He did not however, because in condo lost the Best Original Song austere to Billie Eilish for No Time to Die, but the in console team did clean up at last weekend’s Grammys winning Best Song for we don’t talk about Bruno, no no no best copulation, soundtracks and best score soundtrack for visual media. That’s a mouthful.
GEMMA It is a mouthful. And you know if you’re wondering why, why they won a year after they did not win the Oscar. It’s because the Grammys eligibility window is a lot longer. And one other film related when at the Grammys Taylor Swift, who picked up Best Music Video for All Too Well, her short film. In her speech she says she was very grateful to have her music peers recognize her as a director a direction she’s very much angling to go and alter well has a whopping 4.3 rating on later bucks in it stars, The Whale’s, Sadie sink, another connection to the Oscars.
MIA Before we get back into film specific awards, we did a bunch of research on two other films that essentially birthed award season as we know it, Hester Street and The Deer Hunter, which you can read all about in our Best in Show journal entry this week. Now back to the program. The American cinema editors guild or AC e released their Eddie nominations last week. All five of the films nominated for Best Film Editing at the Oscars are here.
BRIAN Yeah, so that’s TÁR, Top Gun: Maverick, The Banshees of Inisherin and Everything Everywhere All at Once and Elvis.
MIA Yes. But like all these craft guilds, they have more nominations than the Oscars because they divide up movies into genre categories. So you have best edited comedy, best edited drama, animated film, documentary and non theatrical documentary,
GEMMA terrible documentaries. And you know what documentary editors do sift through the most footage and in many ways, any documentary director will tell you that the editor is a co director, essentially a co storyteller, so they’re essential to a good documentary and anything that can highlight Brett Morgan’s Moonage Daydream is, in my opinion, a good category that man worked for so long on that slice of kaleidoscopic glory, to the point where he told me when I talked to him for journal that he would never get those years back. He had never gotten that time back with his wife and kids and he maybe had some regrets about that. So Britt Morgan and his family need some norms. Thank you to Eddie's for bringing an arm home for him. I also love the non theatrical motion picture editing category too. It is nice to see Fire Island somewhere this award season and we did see the acting ensemble on it at the Gotham awards, but that’s about it. And we’re gonna talk about fire eyelids enough that editing was as hot as that cast. So thank you, Brian vacates all your work there. And Weird: The Al Yankovic Story which was a streaming only release, so that’s in the same category non theatrical it was edited. incredibly well by Jamie Kennedy for maximum laughs So yay for them go the series.
MIA The other big winners this past week were from the American Association of Retired people’s movies for grownups award finally,
BRIAN finally the Brit
GEMMA Awards these
MIA these were so fun Brian and I had had a lot of fun digging through their history
BRIAN basically we saw once they gave an award to a movie that we both love that isn’t loved enough down Down With Love, love, love, love, so much love in that sense, but there’s not enough love for Dan with love. They gave that best time capsule back in 2003. Then we had to dive into every year just to see what they were doing, some mentions like a Donald Sutherland, when for Best Actor for Aurora Borealis is a movie I’ve never heard of. And I love me some Donald Sutherland. And that also made me look up the rules and yeah, you have to be 50 or older to get nominated. So yes, my
GEMMA time is coming. My time is coming slowly every year.
BRIAN You could also tell occasionally when they were like waiting for someone to turn 50 And they would just slide in the nomination that didn’t make sense to looking at Brad Pitt for World War Z as soon as he hit 50. I don't know why that’s up for acting best for World War Z. I’m talking Donald Donald has never been nominated for an acting Oscar. Donald Sutherland that’s a crime in my opinion. So that isn’t RP can rectify that any way they want to the academy did give him a career Governor’s Award Oscar but he should have been armed hand over fist.
GEMMA Okay, so who for this year? What are the big ones?
MIA Well, Top Gun Maverick won the coveted Best Movie for grownups. But Elvis won Best time capsule and Best Director for
BRIAN googled because I love that the best movie for grownups is the name of an award. It's so condescending. I love it. And then it’s for Top Gun Maverick. Yeah,
MIA well, we found out they used to have a category called Best Movie for grownups who never grew up. And the nominees were like Finding Nemo.
BRIAN Best Movie for grownups who refuse to grow up.
GEMMA So it was basically the best children’s movie of the year. Yeah,
BRIAN I think it was supposed to be for like the Judd Apatow type stuff, but it just kept being so they exited.
MIA Sad. Well, that’s the end of the news and the perfect editing swipe the most immaculate segue to our behind the curtain segment this week. Behind the red curtain that is
GEMMA Brian, Mia, my dear Best in Show besties. If I said the red curtain trilogy to you, would you know what three films I’m talking about? Hi. No.
BRIAN Twin Peaks Season One, two and the movie Twin Peaks: The Return, the seventeen hour movie actually I don’t think it's a movie but you know sight and sound does.
GEMMA Okay, okay, I just know I am gonna get this. Praise brings the answer home.
MIA Okay, Brian stole my answer, but I think I got it. It’s got to be Baz Luhrmann and Cruz, Strictly Ballroom, Romeo + Juliet and Moulin Rouge!, correct?
GEMMA Yes, those are the first three feature films from this delightful group of Australians who will meet at drama theater film school, who include director Baz Luhrmann, writer Craig Pierce, and production and costume designer Catherine Martin. Of those three cm as she’s lovingly known as the only one to have won an Academy Award. In fact, she’s won for
MIA bas has not yet won an Oscar but he has won Golden Globes and BAFTA has and he also won CMS Hart. They have been married since 1997. No, so Elvis has eight Oscar nominations, including Best Picture actor cinematography, makeup and hairstyling, editing and sound. And once again, Catherine Martin is in the running for both best costume and Best Production Design. Catherine is nominated three times for Elvis as she and baz are part of the Best Picture nomination as the film producers. So we were so excited to talk to Basil's better half about her role in the film's costume and production design departments.
BRIAN I’m excited y’all got to speak to his most trusted collaborator
GEMMA excitedly tried feverishly, Brian exhilarated. Freaking the eff out. So anyone who truly loves me agrees that Strictly Ballroom is one of the best films ever made in the history of cinema. It’s an underdog sports film about ionate young artists fighting to dance their own steps in the repressive world of amateur ballroom dancing in the Sydney suburbs. And when Fran the ugly duckling dance studio assistant calls handsome ballroom star Scott Hastings gateless wonder is one of the greatest status reversals and rom com trope history You know what hit or miss every single one of their films since has been a Betty wonderful, gorgeous, hot miss.
MIA Yes, they have taken on Shakespeare turn of the century Paris and F Scott Fitzgerald and colonial Australia. So it is really no surprise that baz and Catherine took on the tragic glamor of the one and only Elvis, Aaron Presley. Because if there’s one thing that links all of their films, its pants, excellent pants. So let’s hear from the woman behind the wiggle friendly wardrobe. Catherine Martin.
GEMMA We need a little chat about Scott Hastings gold jumpsuit in the Strictly Ballroom Finale. It feels like Elvis jumpsuits are a natural evolution of your bago PAYGO days and this beautiful through line of sparkle that you’ve brought to our lives.
CATHERINE Wow, that is a really interesting comparison that I’ve never ever thought of. And when I was at drama school, I was a very serious young insect and was very into minimalism. I was much more of a concrete box kind of girl. Then I sparkled. And one of the great things I think bassline and brought into my life was he unleashed my inner sparkle. That in fact, I have, obviously, a secret potion for the throwing of a few sequins around. And he kind of saw that in May. And for better or worse, this unleashed it on the world. My love for SQL, are
GEMMA you saying you’re a bit of a friend a little bit of a, you know, quiet, unremarkable?
CATHERINE Yeah, I’m a big moment at the end. I think that, you know, bears are a great discoverer of talent and a great talent, you know, a great encourager, and there’s nothing he likes better than people becoming themselves or coming into their own. And I think about so many of the movies that he’s made. And I was only thinking the other day about a television series we made called The Get Down, and how every single one of those young boys is now a huge star. And I just go, wow, he had that ability to say, the sparkle in all those people and kind of unleashed on the world. So that’s really props to him. But I think the connection is that for ballroom dancers, you know, the glamor of the jumpsuit, because the jumpsuit was really? Bill Balu who was the costume designer at NBC? Really? There was a language for jumpsuits in the 70s. That was something I’m not quite sure how that developed. Did it develop from a boiler suit? I’m not sure. But it is certainly Bill Balu. If it was a nascent trend, he took it and he rocketed to the stars because he had the language of television. So the Osmonds wore jumpsuits. You know, Jackson Five wore jumpsuits all coming out of that kind of bill Balu language and Elvis and so I think ballroom dancers around the world look at this. These Bejeweled catsuits as a kind of a key to glamor and making their art form of dance very connected to popular culture, which is interesting, because in the 70s you also have Mick Jagger famously wearing jumpsuits, albeit in a different style, but I have seen images date approximately from the same period ads of very early 70s late 60s of men’s jumpsuits. I know Lance skis, the CLO the Elvis’s clothier, very specifically in the 50s. But throughout his entire career was carrying jumpsuits in the very early 70s. Some even with capes I love.
GEMMA o film itself as fantasy. And human bears are two of the best fantasy creators in the history of motion pictures. I think it’s fair to say I’m deciding that it’s fair to say I’m really curious about perception versus reality. Like I feel like you’d never be seen in your trackies in public Katherine I imagined I imagined you relaxing it’s in the most luxurious surroundings and some kind of silk get up that’s come fresh from the silkworm farm and please don’t deny me off this fantasy,
CATHERINE landscape your fantasy I went through, because you were disappointed in me. I was so terribly disappointed in myself. Because fantasy is so much better than reality. I think that’s why Oh, I agree. Like, I sometimes think about what is to define the word glamor or romance or, and it’s the world being just that little bit better than it is or a little bit more like we would want it to be. Ultimately, they’re both very positive things. Because being in a romantic and glamorous place, is an inclusive, warm place where everyone feels and looks great. And we’re all interacting in a positive way together. So I always think that encouraging yourself to be a little bit better than you are, in every way, is a good thing. You know,
MIA similarly to this idea of fantasy, Elvis itself is also exploring star persona, and how Elvis like so many other artists used costume and spectacle to mask insecurities and stage fright. So how did that feed into your work?
CATHERINE Well, I think that it was something that was really central, I think, to a connection that Austin had with Elvis, because you can imagine he could draw from real life drawing. What have I done, I’ve signed up to portray one of the most defining figures of the 20th century, whatever Elvis has flaws. He’s in arguably one of the great performers of the 21st century and defined style. And is still so recognizable, even today, iconically, both physically and vocally. And so I think that, that sense of how did I get here? What is the alchemy that brought me to this place, which I think was, in my view, these are the stories I make up in my head, who helped me get inside the character, but I think, gonna think Elvis, incredibly poor family. He was the first one from his family to graduate from high school. And his level, it’s like such an interesting sort of quintessential Mithila mythological story about a performer or a leader or, you know, there are those sorts of so many mythological stories about a child found somewhere. We’re talking about Jesus, you know, a kid from a manager who somehow comes to greatness. And they’re not even quite sure how that happened. And the great doubt and the insecurity that is around that, because you’re never quite sure where that talent comes from. There’s nothing you can’t point to that person, and then the enormous responsibility, because you just feel like a terrified 13 year old who wants to learn how to play the guitar. But when you walk down a corridor, 300 Girls are falling over screaming, fainting. And there’s this enormous disconnection between your inner life and your outer life and trying to navigate through those things. And I think that, that is a constant struggle for an actor, particularly a famous actor, or any kind of performer who has an ability that is, you know, it is a really magical and it’s an alchemy, because it is about skill and ability, and about hard work and all those things. But it’s also about the about a sort of a magical thing, where all those things can be dragged into a single communication through one person, like the pressure is when I see them walk on set, before a big moment, like Austin before big dance number or the 68 special and you think everybody, literally 1000s of people are expecting you to project all of this into a piece of ground glass, you know, into a bit of glass. And then it’s captured. Now digitally, you know, 010101 into a box, and then somehow it’s reprojected and people connect to that moment. And to me, I think that you are alchemy that is magic right there?
GEMMA Well, I have a specific example for you that I’d love to ask you about, which is, you know, the first watch is all about being immersed in this in this bears lumen world this the second and third watch is often about, for me trying to work out why a particular scene actually hit quite so hard beyond the performance that’s on the screen. And it was the booby scene when Elvis was about to go off to Florida. I think he’s in that pink shirt that has mamas and that gorgeous, darker pink dress with the offset ruffled neckline. And they’re hugging in the bedroom, cheek to cheek. I had a moment where I was like, what do I need to ask Catherine Barton? Unfortunately, you’re right here. Thanks for, you know, picking up the phone. I was really interested in the costume relationship between mother and son across the film, but specifically in that scene because it did something to me alchemical mystical that I don’t have the words to explain, but I know you have a giant book that possibly explains it.
CATHERINE: Look, it’s really interesting. One of my most profound experiences at Graceland was a weird moment where I was lucky enough to be in the archives with Angie Marquese, who’s the head archivist there? And the archives are incredible because it has all manner of infant ephemera from the most important jumpsuit to a chatbot that Vernon Presley kept of, you know, buying. I’m joking, but you know, virtually buying toilet paper for Graceland, you know that that it’s that kind of and I happen to see some of it because in big cardboard archive boxes, they have all of the gladness, or not all but many of Gladys are close because Elvis kept them all. Oh, wow. And I the lead coming off the box. And this profound sense of sadness. Like if I want to use the words unrequited love or sort of it was like a longing, a sadness, a desire for connection, I couldn’t quite describe it. And the dress above was sort of a little bit of pink highlight in it. And she very famously loved Lila and purple. They were her favorite colors. But also in the box. She kept all of the you know, when there were the souvenir bracelets and lockets that were produced, you know, that the colonel produced and she wore them, kind of with no irony whatsoever. And I think that the love she had for her son, and her complicated because of her youth. Now there’s not that much written about Gladys, there is a book about her. And I’m not sure how apocryphal it is. But she was by all s, when you talk to people that knew her, she was an incredibly charismatic personality. And incredibly bright and great to have around and you just wanted to be in her presence. Very warm. And in her youth allegedly in the book that I read, she was a brilliant Charleston dancer, and very into, you know, style and glamor and looking good as much as her means could allow her to be. And I think so much of who Elvis is, is wrapped up in that undying confidence and love his mother had for him that she really believed he was truly special. And that loss of him that she knew that she would lose him to the audience. I mean, I truly believe that that is what actually killed her, you know that. That wrench and that she’s a really interesting character because obviously without your parents, you quite literally wouldn’t exist. But I think that she was just so quintessential to who Elvis was and who he became. And yes, I think that she just loved him so unconditionally, that it allowed him however terrified he was to be truly himself.
MIA Gemma just got to share her alchemy moments and I have to share what mine was of Elvis. It's near the beginning when all the girls are watching him doing the wiggle and they start screaming. And I am so so curious about how you went about creating wiggle friendly HanSe What is the secret to accentuating the Elvis wiggle? Please tell us.
CATHERINE Okay, so very interesting journey. So the big focus of Bassetts was to take the 50s vernacular of clothing, and the Elvis style, which has kind of become part of the lexicon of sartorial elegance. So there’s no sense of punkish pneus about it, or sexuality, yes, there’s a suaveness, or it’s under the surface, but there, the connection to the sex part. And so, it was about examining the shape of 50s pants to start with. And I work with a wonderful tailor, I have for 30 years, Gloriam Barlaam. And her challenge was basically to help us discover this shape. So his pants were pegged, which means that they were tied a bit tighter at the bottom, so the leg is a bit of a balloon. So it allows the top of the leg to like, flap about. So that was one thing that we kind of discovered. The other thing that Gloria is really good at, is making a tight bot, but a loose front, right, because you don’t want it to just be baggy, but it’s got to know, it’s got to have a nice shape at the back. And then it needed to be baggy enough at the front without looking frumpy, a sort of mom, Jane, or old man type thing. So we went through, I don’t know how many pairs of pants, they were dubbed squirrel pants, because that was one of the insults that was hurled at him when he was going to school, that he was a squirrel. We’d started on this journey before we got shut down for COVID. And bass is a very good natural dancer and a good mover. And so a lot of these clothes start with him wanting to see if he can feel how the actors are going to be able to move in the clothes. So he did spend quite a lot of time in COVID, I’m sorry to let out his secret. In Not Austin’s clothes weren't creepy, we would make a set for him to kind of work out and understand the choreography, and how the clothes in the 50s connected to the body. Because his big thing was how do we still keep the sensuality? How do we keep the sexuality of Elvis and the sexuality of his movement connected to the close? How do we understand it? And it’s very difficult to do without moving in them. And so it was an exploration and an experimentation. And I think sometimes I thought poor Austin, he must think that, no, I’m challenged in so many ways. I explore a lot of things just by doing them. Because you can draw 50 pairs of pants. With two plates in the front, you can explain how you want it to look, yeah. But at the end of the day, it’s just a drawing, I can also get you the photos, or I can get you a sample or I can do this. And sometimes it really is about the human form, and the garment. And you can hope and wish that what you draw on a piece of paper or the photo you plucked out of a book that you can adapt or whatever is going to work. But until it’s actually in the fabric of a person. And they’ve connected with it. It’s just close. It’s sort of meaningless. And so that’s one thing that Bas, really on our journey has encouraged and taught me to do is to be fearless about just trying stuff on and workshopping stuff and just not worrying at first. I think actors think you’re crazy because you’d like Welcome to my lair and I’ve got like 50 pairs of pants in different fabrics would you could you try them on
GEMMA Because Letterboxd is the social network for film lovers and we do love to talk about obviously Elvis which is such a majestic piece of craft on your pet. But we’d love to know were there any films that you watched in the research phase or when you were putting the book together? Elvis films are the films that informed a lot of your work.
CATHERINE: Well, I watched a lot of Elvis films just to understand the clothes, the hair. A lot of archival footage of him, a lot of Super Eight fan stuff. And what’s incredible about Elvis is the audio visual material that’s available on him is, like, endless. I mean, I think bears have a great saying he says, I want things to look like the way they felt to be there. And so that’s always my mantra. Does that feel like it was to actually be there in the moment? Does it feel like that? And so I think that’s another thing that someone like Mandy Walker did brilliantly, she was able to match. You know, and some people have said to me, Well, when you mix the footage of Elvis and Austin, I get really confused over who’s who and I go, Well, yes, that’s the magic of cinema. That’s the magic of Austin. And, you know, that amalgam of the real and the creative is kind of, I think, what helps tell the story.
MIA You have said before that you are no longer tempted to keep film costumes. But if you were Austin Butler and Elvis, which would you keep? And also if you were Nicole Kidman, and Moulin Rouge, which would you keep? I just keep that in.
CATHERINE Oh my goodness. Okay. Well, at the end of the movie, we gave Austin the sundog a jumpsuit, which is the one he sings the you know, Unchained Melody in was actually embroidered by the same man who embroidered Elvis this jumpsuit. So don’t tell the studio but we cut the sundial enough to win us that was super meaningful because it was a direct connection to Elvis and to that extraordinary moment in the movie. Well, we did keep one thing from Elvis. I kept a gold lamb, a suit that was meant for Alton Mason to wear, but it was just through a collaborative moment that ended up being much better than the gold law. My suit ever would have been on stage. It ended up not being used. And then my daughter wore it on the red carpet, I think in London. So we kept one thing, and then what would I keep of Nicole Kidman ones? They rather bulky things to store? Well, what about the diamond necklace?
Oh, really? That would come in handy. Yes. Yeah, the real one. When everything else falls apart, you
GEMMA Can just you can take that to
CATHERINE just be feeling a bit sad or your kids have given you a hard time or you’re always in the household who never knows what’s going on. You just pop that on.
MIA And you’re a diamond dog on a boss everyone award ceremony has that moment after the show. When you finagle your way into your nominated friend’s hotel room, throw on the robes, turn on TCM, pour a nice glass of red wine and order up room service. That’s right. It is the best show after the party.
GEMMA It’s good to be here.
BRIAN Good to be here last week since we all watch 2023 Sundance movies in the mountains or at home surrounded by mountains of laundry or mountains or room service. I’m not sure how you guys did it. But I suggested that we should watch the first movie to ever win the Sundance jury grand prize. This is Marissa Silver’s first feature film Old Enough. She was only 23 years old when she made it and she got a workshop through Robert Redford Sundance incubator system, the Sundance lab when she was even younger than that. I mean, I’m always humbled by young filmmakers who have movies and festivals because when I was 23 You wanted to know what I was doing. What were you doing, Brian? I was DJing and a woman slipped under the name of public thrust in Knoxville, Tennessee and called in sick to work from tambourine bruises from going too hard. Actually, I should be in a Katherine Martin Baz Luhrmann timepiece. I think what were y’all doing at 23?
GEMMA I was not at Sundance with my debut feature.
MIA No, no, yeah, I was just daydreaming about Hollywood. Well, getting stoned in the bathroom of the bookstore. I was not.
BRIAN At that bookstore, you might have encountered some delinquents like an Old Enough which follows two young girls, fourteen-year-old Karen, an eleven-and-three-quarter-year-old Lonnie. I did laugh when she said she was eleven-and-three-quarters.
GEMMA It’s my favorite detail of the entire film.
BRIAN The movie is just set in a brief window of time of their friendship and Karen and Lonnie have different social backgrounds, which ultimately becomes a bit of the narrative thrust. The safety bubble isn’t just about being younger, but also living on certain New York city blocks. This was the first time for all of us to watch. I’m curious about both of your thoughts, but I’ll start with our Lonnie. Meow. What do you think of Old Enough?
MIA I really enjoyed it and I can’t believe I had never heard of it prior 11 and three quarters years old is such a formative and strange age for every one period. And then that navigation gets even more complicated when you factor in makeup and dresses and hormones and gender identity panic and the relationship between Lani and Winona Ryder look alike Karen was so fascinating to me because it captured the way that preteens latch on to teenagers and think they’re like the coolest and wisest girls in the world even though they are just as clueless. And this is also an age when girls begin to dip their toes in the patriarchal pool of being viewed as sex objects which is a life shattering realization that Marissa depicts here with so much care and authenticity. There was a moment that I was positively directly inspired by that infamous car scene from eighth grade. A hunch confirmed by my discovery that Bo Burnham introduced Old Enough at a metrograph screening. So if you’re an eighth grade fan, this is a must watch in great catch,
GEMMA is a great double feature I have to say. All I have to say is at the end of my 11th year, I burned the diary that I had kept every single day of that year. Of course, I totally regret it now. Because what was in there, that would make me burn it. But at the time, I just didn’t the feeling of the thought of anyone getting their eyes on that diary, and having me in hot flames of shame. And I was a Catholic girl on the road to confirmation and match like, you know, one of the characters in this film so you just know I smashed all by upstairs and the hot button for this. And that’s all I’ve got to say get it it’s on to be just get on there
MIA it's free on Tubi for real isn’t that story, Jim?
BRIAN Thank you for sharing what I was. When I was a teenager I wrote a movie script that I burned immediately after reading it back because I was like no one. No one can ever
GEMMA wants to make that film now. Can you imagine? Can you imagine if we just set up a Kickstarter for Brian’s film script
BRIAN yours, yours would be so much better. Part of the reason why I burned mine is actually because I saw The Cell and it was very similar to that to costume design. One of my favorite costumes in that movie burning
GEMMA something at that age is such a violent and final act and it really, you know, gives me an insight into how well Marissa Silva captured these girls in this film. A cian nailed it.
BRIAN Yes, she did. She did not burn the script, she made a movie. So she’s a first time filmmaker. These are first time actors. It makes sense to me that it won the first Jury Prize at Sundance because the charm of the film directly comes from the first timeliness of it all, in my opinion, including a nice little electronic score by the first and only composer Julian Marshall.
GEMMA Hey, Julia Mashel never made another school like that. Again, that’s called bounds.
BRIAN Yeah, he’d only worked in television prior and he never scored a feature after this again. But someone who was not a first timer is cinematographer Michael Ballhaus, the most veteran of the bunch, it looks gorgeous. This is his second English language film. I’m always going. I'm only saying that because I always want to name drop his first one which was John sales Baby It’s You It’s my favorite Coming of Age movie ever and I’ve just any chance that I can drop that so that people might get to watch it. I am going to say it so Ballhaus bursted, baby, it’s you in America, and then he did Old Enough. Old Enough, has very unnaturally performances that are so well directed. I’m thinking particularly at the slight nonverbal facial expressions of both actresses. But because I highlighted the age we do have to mention that this is a 23 year old who not only directed a movie that was produced by her sister, but also hired Rainer Werner Fassbinder cinematographer that’s Ballhaus why and got the film into Robert Redford’s Film Festival. So she had some access. Oh, yeah. Well, Marissa silver writer, director of Old Enough, and Dinah silver producer, Joan is the mother of both of them and their father, Rafael de Silva, produced Jones movies, and he also directed a few but this isn’t shade because Marissa knew early on to write what you know, and it’s a good movie.
MIA So but I am giving her an official Nippo baby because her film showed true talent, and I really, really wish that she were able to write and direct more. She did a few more that I didn’t say yes, I mean, like, I mean, like more and more and more. I want like 50 movies. You know,
GEMMA can I just mention that Sarah Boyd who plays Lonnie, that 11 and three quarter year old, didn’t go on to do much more acting, but she did become an editor and a director. So she stayed in the industry. She’s still around. I love that story. And I love that for her. We’re going to wrap things up. This has been a lovely after party. We’ve got to get to the player of the season. But what are we going to watch next week from Woods history? I’ve had a turn. Brian’s had a turn. I think Mia, it might be your turn.
MIA I think so. It is my slumber party and I get to pick the movie. We have we’ve actually we’ve we’ve already mentioned my assignment during this it is the winner of the 2003 AARP best time capsule award Down With Love.
BRIAN Oops, I did a spoiler. Slim is gonna like to pull this audio and like to use it in meetings against me. He’s always accusing me of spoilers.
MIA You spoiled the whole thing. We can’t do it because you mentioned it one
GEMMA though. You haven’t spoiled anything. I’m excited. I mean, I already watched this once for your favorite episode or for favorites. Mayor. I’m happy to do it again. Down With Love, twenty years this year. What a treat for us.
MIA Oh yeah, I’m always making people watch this movie. That’s one thing about me. So we have already extolled our love for the AARP. And I would like to continue that celebration because as I just mentioned, they were one of the few organizations brave enough to award Peyton Reid’s delightful send up of 1950s and 60s Sex comedies with best time capsule and DSM three. It is one of only four awards this movie received even though it deserved so so so many more especially nods for costume and production design. That’s not even to mention the brilliant cast made up of Renee Zellweger, Ewan McGregor, David Hyde Pierce, Sarah Paulson and more and it’s particularly relevant now since Reed’s new Ant Man hit theaters February 17th.
GEMMA Oh my gosh, exciting. So if anyone else listening wants to watch love between this episode and the next and tag your review Best in Show. We might have a little peek and bring it into the discussion next week. All right, it is time for player of the season. Let’s stick on theme and go back to this year’s Sundance jury. Jeremy Oh Harris, Eliza Hickman, Marlee Matlin. Jeremy and Eliza walked out of the Magazine Dreams premiere with Molly, who was deaf when Molly’s captioning device malfunctioned, saying that they would watch it when she and audience like her were covered. So first, that’s cool. Secondly, they ended up seeing and awarding the film A Jury Prize for its creative vision. So this is a shout out for jury solidarity and for the festival made good by Jonathan majors in Elijah Bynum in the end.
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MIA Thanks so much for listening to Best in Show, a limited awards season series brought to you by The Letterboxd Show. We would love for you to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts because it makes us happy but more importantly, it spreads the word.
GEMMA You can follow all of us and the HQ page on Letterboxd using the links in our episode notes. Thanks to our crew Jack the facts, Slim for making us sound amazing, Sophie for the episode transcript and Letterboxd member Trent Walton for the music and to all of you for listening.
BRIAN Speaking of solidarity forever, I have two words to leave you with tonight, ladies and gentleman, inclusion writer. Best in Show is a Tape Deck production.
[Tapdeck bumper plays] This is a Tape Deck podcast.